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mamasa

IU vs O$U Game thread 1/30 7 pm

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22 minutes ago, HoosierHoops1 said:

Those 3 were clearly Crean Recruits, But Lance Stemler and Mike White were Sampson recruits from Juco.

If CAM brought Wright or others, they would count like Stemler and White.

To be fair, Mike Davis NOT COACHING at IU any longer, recruited Eric Gordon.

Yeah Mike Davis was his own worst enemy in recruiting, remember hearing Mark Titus, who was friends with Mike  Conley and Greg Oden in high school, say that both of those guys didn't even consider Indiana because Mike Davis was the coach. 

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2 minutes ago, Ajwhitis said:

Yeah Mike Davis was his own worst enemy in recruiting, remember hearing Mark Titus, who was friends with Mike  Conley and Greg Oden in high school, say that both of those guys didn't even consider Indiana because Mike Davis was the coach. 

Also the letter addressed to Sherron Collins but mailed to Conley didn't help.

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Yeah Mike Davis was his own worst enemy in recruiting, remember hearing Mark Titus, who was friends with Mike  Conley and Greg Oden in high school, say that both of those guys didn't even consider Indiana because Mike Davis was the coach. 

It's because Conley and his Dad were the alphas (and maybe willing to accept some benefits) and MD didn't think Conley was good enough for Indiana. Or so the rumor goes.

Hmm......


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It was Sampsons true 2nd class.  I'm not counting Smith, Durham, and Moore as Archie players as they were clearly Crean recruits.  And Ebanks was ranked #11 by Rivals and 13 by scout.  I just assumed he had to of been a burger boy. 

Who were the 5 burger boys Crean had? Zeller, Yogi, Vonleh, Blackmon, and?


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On 1/31/2018 at 9:16 AM, GnarlyTimGarl said:

- Are we really comparing rankings saying who had the #130 best player vs. the #143 best player? I know we as fans like to do that because we like to quantify things on paper, but everyone here knows that doesn't allow for variables like experience, improvement, environment, style, effort, etc. Do we have players ranked somewhat similar to those at Ohio State? Maybe. But no one can honestly say that we are as/more talented than them this season. If the rankings say we're equal (and I don't believe they do) they were wrong on some evaluations. Last night made that abundantly clear.

I'm seeing this narrative a lot lately, all over the internet and not just from yourself, especially in the wake of the OSU loss. It's easy to say in the moment, but it's also true that literally no one, local or national, felt this way in the preseason. It's quite a bit revisionist to act like talent is obvious reason for the difference in our teams this season.

To the extent that you believe Ohio State has a more talented roster than Indiana, credit has to go to Holtmann for developing and utilizing that talent. Variables like improvement, environment and effort certainly do matter, but if they are happening at Ohio State it's fair to question why they aren't happening here. The answer I always get is that Archie is implementing a brand new system and results will take time. Maybe that answer is sufficient, but then only time will tell. Until then, the question will still be out there.

Edited by Maedhros

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34 minutes ago, Maedhros said:

I'm seeing this narrative a lot lately, all over the internet and not just from yourself, especially in the wake of the OSU loss. It's easy to say in the moment, but it's also true that literally no one, local or national, felt this way in the preseason. It's quite a bit revisionist to act like talent is obvious reason for the difference in our teams this season.

To the extent that you believe Ohio State has a more talented roster than Indiana, credit has to go to Holtmann for developing and utilizing that talent. Variables like improvement, environment and effort certainly do matter, but if they are happening at Ohio State it's fair to question why they aren't happening here. The answer I always get is that Archie is implementing a brand new system and results will take time. Maybe that answer is sufficient, but then only time will tell. Until then, the question will still be out there.

I think I see your point and I would agree with you most of the time, but I truly feel this situation is different. It's true that IU and Ohio State were ranked similarly in the preseason. But back then we were counting a healthy Davis and Hartman. You throw those two in the mix and the talent differential is a lot closer. Instead, we all saw what was put on the floor Tuesday evening. I don't think it's revisionist when the makeup of one of the teams has changed over the course of the year.

I guess the way I look at it was put our five on their five and who is more talented? They have the front-runner for the Big Ten Player of the Year in Bates-Diop. They also have someone playing at an All-Conference level in Tate. Throw in a Freshman of the Year candidate in Wesson and two other very solid guards who could garner all-conference honorable mention in Jackson and Williams. We have Morgan, Johnson and random pieces.

Holtmann absolutely deserves credit. What they have done this year has been outstanding. As a matter of fact, it's been so outstanding that it has been something that has never happened before in the history of the Big Ten (referring to a 9-0 start for a first year head coach in conference play.) As in, their play considering their circumstances in the preseason has been unprecedented. They've been THAT good this year. So does that mean we are to expect Archie to do the same thing here? As in, why is he not close to setting a new Big Ten record for a first year head coach? It is my opinion that that Ohio State's immediate success this year is an outlier. It's extremely rare for something like this to happen. Setting that as the expectation or any sort of bar for Archie is unfair. Again, Ohio State is doing something this year that's never been done before in the Big Ten.

Look at Illinois. They were in the same boat as us and Ohio State. And they're really struggling this year. We're doing better than them. But what does that really mean? In the grand scheme of things, not much because each situation is different. But if we use the first-year coach comparison logic, Archie is far surpassing Underwood. It's like... who is the standard. Is it Holtmann? Is it Archie? Is it Underwood?

But this is all just my opinion and I may be way off base. It certainly wouldn't be the first time. :)

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55 minutes ago, Maedhros said:

I'm seeing this narrative a lot lately, all over the internet and not just from yourself, especially in the wake of the OSU loss. It's easy to say in the moment, but it's also true that literally no one, local or national, felt this way in the preseason. It's quite a bit revisionist to act like talent is obvious reason for the difference in our teams this season.

To the extent that you believe Ohio State has a more talented roster than Indiana, credit has to go to Holtmann for developing and utilizing that talent. Variables like improvement, environment and effort certainly do matter, but if they are happening at Ohio State it's fair to question why they aren't happening here. The answer I always get is that Archie is implementing a brand new system and results will take time. Maybe that answer is sufficient, but then only time will tell. Until then, the question will still be out there.

There must be some reason we were predicted to finish near the bottom of the standings.  Just because OSU defied the experts, doesn't mean our talent level was under valued. 

We were pretty bad last year and lost 3 of our best players - our only hope for improvement was from individual development.

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2 minutes ago, pumpfake said:

There must be some reason we were predicted to finish near the bottom of the standings.  Just because OSU defied the experts, doesn't mean our talent level was under valued. 

We were pretty bad last year and lost 3 of our best players - our only hope for improvement was from individual development.

I'm in this corner.  

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2 minutes ago, GnarlyTimGarl said:

I think I see your point and I would agree with you most of the time, but I truly feel this situation is different. It's true that IU and Ohio State were ranked similarly in the preseason. But back then we were counting a healthy Davis and Hartman. You throw those two in the mix and the talent differential is a lot closer. Instead, we all saw what was put on the floor Tuesday evening. I don't think it's revisionist when the makeup of one of the teams has changed over the course of the year.

I guess the way I look at it was put our five on their five and who is more talented? They have the front-runner for the Big Ten Player of the Year in Bates-Diop. They also have someone playing at an All-Conference level in Tate. Throw in a Freshman of the Year candidate in Wesson and two other very solid guards who could garner all-conference honorable mention in Jackson and Williams. We have Morgan, Johnson and random pieces.

Quoting only the part I want to address. I agree with most of the rest, particularly that results in the first year don't tell us much about which coach will find better success in the long term.

I think we're considering two different situations. In this specific game, yes, the injures to Davis and Hartman certainly did affect the talent we could place on the floor. The transfer of CuJo at the semester also affected the talent available Tuesday night. But the subject of my previous post was the season on the whole, and those are all developments that have happened since the start of the season. Ohio State has been outperforming us from the jump, so it's not as though the injuries to Davis and Hartman are sufficient to explain the difference.

I mention the transfer of CuJo, because that's a player who could have helped this team with a needed scoring punch, if Archie had been able to reach him. Instead, whatever broke with CuJo last year stayed broken, or at least we have to assume it did because he wasn't getting minutes. Maybe that relationship was never going to work out, and their styles were never going to clash. But it's an example arguably within Archie's control of talent not being harnessed at Indiana.

 

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Does anyone else hate this season? Like, legitimately hate where we are right now and what's happened to this point?

 

Purdue having an historically good season while we struggle.

OSU, with a first-year coach some of our fans wanted, out-performing us.

Illinois, with a first-year coach, sucking, but still beating us anyway.

 

Tom Crean, sitting in a cushy studio chair, regurgitating the same garbage we had to hear for 9 years while viewers eat it up. Speaking of which, has anyone else had the pleasure of hearing Crean supporters mouthing off about how we aren't any better for having dumped his sorry butt? I know a guy who, after every loss, is all like "boy, Archie sure has made a difference, hasn't he? The team is so much better, isn't it?"

 

I hate this season.

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5 minutes ago, TheWatShot said:

Does anyone else hate this season? Like, legitimately hate where we are right now and what's happened to this point?

 

Purdue having an historically good season while we struggle.

OSU, with a first-year coach some of our fans wanted, out-performing us.

Illinois, with a first-year coach, sucking, but still beating us anyway.

 

Tom Crean, sitting in a cushy studio chair, regurgitating the same garbage we had to hear for 9 years while viewers eat it up. Speaking of which, has anyone else had the pleasure of hearing Crean supporters mouthing off about how we aren't any better for having dumped his sorry butt? I know a guy who, after every loss, is all like "boy, Archie sure has made a difference, hasn't he? The team is so much better, isn't it?"

 

I hate this season.

Wait, there are actually people that think IU should've kept that guy?  And they're not locked in asylums?

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1 minute ago, JSHoosier said:

Wait, there are actually people that think IU should've kept that guy?  And they're not locked in asylums?

The kind of person who disagrees for the sake of disagreeing and attributes it to being an "unconventional thinker." We all know people like that.

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5 minutes ago, TheWatShot said:

Does anyone else hate this season? Like, legitimately hate where we are right now and what's happened to this point?

 

Purdue having an historically good season while we struggle.

OSU, with a first-year coach some of our fans wanted, out-performing us.

Illinois, with a first-year coach, sucking, but still beating us anyway.

 

Tom Crean, sitting in a cushy studio chair, regurgitating the same garbage we had to hear for 9 years while viewers eat it up. Speaking of which, has anyone else had the pleasure of hearing Crean supporters mouthing off about how we aren't any better for having dumped his sorry butt? I know a guy who, after every loss, is all like "boy, Archie sure has made a difference, hasn't he? The team is so much better, isn't it?"

 

I hate this season.

I hear you.  

I'll point out one difference.  Last season, as the losses mounted, I stopped watching because I'd given up hope.  At least right now I can hang onto this line that these new recruits and this new coach are going to be better.  I can dream that our program will look and play like Virginia, because we've installed the right coach.  

And finally, having all of these Indiana kids committed and interested makes it better.  I can follow Phinisee and Anderson with new interest.  Same with Romeo and Brooks and TJD.  

Last year was terrible.  I started with such high hopes, and it ended up being humiliating and deflating.

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