Player and Recruit Retention News/Discussion & Potential Transfers

[Hoosierfan2017 19,879]

I feel like if there had been a scholarship for Patterson we would've "found a way" to keep him eligible. 

[LamarCheeks 16,805]

9 minutes ago, Hoosierfan2017 said:

I feel like if there had been a scholarship for Patterson we would've "found a way" to keep him eligible. 

Yep. Had we not been oversigned by one, he would've been admitted.

[LamarCheeks 16,805]

In slight defense of Crean (and I don't necessarily like to defend him), the NCAA does coaches no favors with the time element of guys being able to pull out of the draft. It can't be easy trying to sign a class when you don't know who's going and who's staying -- May 24 is awfully late to be trying to determine that. Granted, you should have a decent idea, but you can't always be 100 percent positive. Say, for instance Archie lets Durham and Moore out of their LOIs, figuring Blackman and Bryant will come back. Then, the latter two hire agents and stay in the draft. You've lost two pretty decent recruits. I think guys should be able to get evaluated before deciding to stay or go, but the time frame needs to be revisited -- perhaps tightened up a bit or something. 

[Redandyz 151]

37 minutes ago, bigrod said:

I had never read about him cheating, but that he didn't "fully qualify". He took summer courses at IU. How did he do that if he wasn't admitted?

Regardless I think it is safe to say we dodged a bit of a bullet with him.  He struggled at Syracuse before heading to IUPUI and averaging under 10 points a game.  Maybe he does better under Crean, but sounds he was the odd man out in that class and likely doesn't play a ton.  I was excited about him, but never really panned out.

[JSHoosier 19,547]

1 hour ago, HoosierAloha said:

Ron Patterson, Matt Roth, and several others felt forced out. Ron didn't help himself by his actions but if their was a roster spot I'm sure he would have been on the team. Oversigning forces players out and can create a negative environment. Archie is cleaning something up that Crean was known to do every year. There are many successful programs that can manage their roster without oversigning. I hope this is something Archie is able to do it.

I don't really buy that oversigning is necessary.  There's no rule against being under the scholarship limit, and even Crean with his wacky substitutions didn't go 11 or 12 deep; if you are there are other issues than being under the limit.

I really don't like the "it works itself out" argument some use; of course it does, there is literally no alternative.

[Walking Boot of Doom 18,170]

I don't really buy that oversigning is necessary.  There's no rule against being under the scholarship limit, and even Crean with his wacky substitutions didn't go 11 or 12 deep; if you are there are other issues than being under the limit.
I really don't like the "it works itself out" argument some use; of course it does, there is literally no alternative.

Without oversigning, we wouldn't have a recruiting class right now, despite having four players currently in the draft. It is absolutely necessary.


Sent from my iPhone using BtownBanners mobile app

[Hovadipo 52,891]

As far as I know, Ron Patterson didn't ever play here because of Ron Patterson. Something about a summer class he needed to get admitted or a summer class here and he flunked out. That doesn't seem like an oversign thing to me at all. Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, and I have no doubt someone will.

[bigrod 2,784]

9 minutes ago, Hovadipo said:

As far as I know, Ron Patterson didn't ever play here because of Ron Patterson. Something about a summer class he needed to get admitted or a summer class here and he flunked out. That doesn't seem like an oversign thing to me at all. Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, and I have no doubt someone will.

I am going off of memory and what I read at the time, but he took summer classes at IU, but didn't fully qualify to IU's standards. I swear I remember that he met the NCAA standards, but not IU's, (but maybe I'm wrong about that).

We were without a doubt oversigned and someone needed to go. it seemed like this was the way "everything worked itself out". If there was any cheating or flunking involved, I did not read about it, but it may not have been public knowledge.

[mdn82 25,456]

I am going off of memory and what I read at the time, but he took summer classes at IU, but didn't fully qualify to IU's standards. I swear I remember that he met the NCAA standards, but not IU's, (but maybe I'm wrong about that).
We were without a doubt oversigned and someone needed to go. it seemed like this was the way "everything worked itself out". If there was any cheating or flunking involved, I did not read about it, but it may not have been public knowledge.

Correct. He didn't flunk but didn't carry the grades to qualify.


Sent from my iPhone using BtownBanners mobile app

[JSHoosier 19,547]

18 minutes ago, bigrod said:

I am going off of memory and what I read at the time, but he took summer classes at IU, but didn't fully qualify to IU's standards. I swear I remember that he met the NCAA standards, but not IU's, (but maybe I'm wrong about that).

We were without a doubt oversigned and someone needed to go. it seemed like this was the way "everything worked itself out". If there was any cheating or flunking involved, I did not read about it, but it may not have been public knowledge.

This is accurate.  If I remember correctly he got a C- instead of a C.

[HoosierAloha 29,886]

I don't really buy that oversigning is necessary.  There's no rule against being under the scholarship limit, and even Crean with his wacky substitutions didn't go 11 or 12 deep; if you are there are other issues than being under the limit.
I really don't like the "it works itself out" argument some use; of course it does, there is literally no alternative.

I didn't clarify that at the end. I hope we see Archie not have to use the oversign and succeed. There's other successful programs out there doing it, we can too.

[Str8Hoosiers 2,965]

51 minutes ago, Walking Boot of Doom said:

Without oversigning, we wouldn't have a recruiting class right now, despite having four players currently in the draft. It is absolutely necessary.


Sent from my iPhone using BtownBanners mobile app

While technically true this season that is on Crean more than on Miller.... It is because Crean left us in this situation... but under normal circumstances in Archie's world we would possibly have only been using 11 scholarships last season, then OG leaves and we bring in 3 more.... and if JBJ or TB leave then we roll this season with 11/12 scholarships again.

Never need to have a situation like we will have next year with possibly 7/8 open positions we need to try to fill. Never have a situation where we have to "force" somebody out for the next shiny recruit.

Always leaves room for somebody that happens to fall in our lap or fixes a need via grad transfers etc...

[Hovadipo 52,891]

I am going off of memory and what I read at the time, but he took summer classes at IU, but didn't fully qualify to IU's standards. I swear I remember that he met the NCAA standards, but not IU's, (but maybe I'm wrong about that).
We were without a doubt oversigned and someone needed to go. it seemed like this was the way "everything worked itself out". If there was any cheating or flunking involved, I did not read about it, but it may not have been public knowledge.

That still sounds like a Ron Patterson problem to me. If IU's standards were clear and he didn't meet them, then that's just how it goes, or how it worked itself out.

[TheWatShot 13,335]

He plagiarized a paper and got a zero, which brought his grade down to a C-. He then claimed IU saw this as a solution to the oversign situation and jumped on it. Maybe if he'd tried a little harder in high school it wouldn't have come down to that.

[bigrod 2,784]

Just now, Hovadipo said:

 

That still sounds like a Ron Patterson problem to me. If IU's standards were clear and he didn't meet them, then that's just how it goes, or how it worked itself out.

That is true, but if we had a scholarship available, do you think he would have "fully qualified?" I personally think it would have been a non-issue.

My whole thing with Crean was his whole approach to recruiting. He would offer 15 kids for 2 scholarships. He didn't seem to recruit based on need, and didn't seem to have any real plan. Every year he over recruited because it seemed he couldn't stand the thought of a single scholarship going unclaimed. It was almost like an addiction.

[bigrod 2,784]

5 minutes ago, TheWatShot said:

He plagiarized a paper and got a zero, which brought his grade down to a C-. He then claimed IU saw this as a solution to the oversign situation and jumped on it. Maybe if he'd tried a little harder in high school it wouldn't have come down to that.

Well, if true, it obviously was a solution. Pretty hard to imagine Crean knew that was going to happen though.

[mdn82 25,456]

That still sounds like a Ron Patterson problem to me. If IU's standards were clear and he didn't meet them, then that's just how it goes, or how it worked itself out.

Absolutely. Crean and IU were clear what he had to do and gave him every bit of help during his probationary period. Crean wanted him to be a part of that class more than most of the movement. To insinuate he ran him off is asinine.


Sent from my iPhone using BtownBanners mobile app

[Bowhunter 2,645]

I hope we do over sign a little. Not to Crean's magnatude but I would like to see some of our 4 or 5 star kids make it to the NBA by year 2 or 3. This isn't Dayton and it's not Kentucky one and done. I just want consistent talent which will require an over sign here and there.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using BtownBanners mobile app

[BGleas 7,880]

Oversigning because some guys are going to the NBA is one thing, oversigning because you don't want to grant Matt Roth or Colin Hartman a 5th year is another entirely to me. IMO, Crean fostered an atmosphere where guys felt they had to move on or graduate early, or that their spot wasn't safe. I think that's partly why recruiting began to fall off. 

For instance, I believe that Crean was still the coach that there is no way Hartman is coming back, and I think that's a mistake. Same thing with Roth in 12-13. 

[Hovadipo 52,891]

That is true, but if we had a scholarship available, do you think he would have "fully qualified?" I personally think it would have been a non-issue.
My whole thing with Crean was his whole approach to recruiting. He would offer 15 kids for 2 scholarships. He didn't seem to recruit based on need, and didn't seem to have any real plan. Every year he over recruited because it seemed he couldn't stand the thought of a single scholarship going unclaimed. It was almost like an addiction.

I agree with the Crean thing. The shotgun approach was crazy and dumb and put us in bad situations nearly every year. There's a difference between a strategic oversign and what Crean did. And then you have the problem with situational offers and "we're offering but don't accept until we tell you to". I don't like that at all and am certain that happened every year and there were some kids that probably got screwed by it. I have no evidence, just ideas from very closely watching our recruiting for 4-5 years.