TOM CREAN FIRED

[Lebowski 1,848]

Yeah, I'm ready to turn the page.  My wish list, B. Donovan or G. Marshall.  Either one of those two will most likely succeed at IU.  At this very moment I would prefer Marshall but ask me in an hour after I put down a caucasian or two or three, Donovan would be my preference.  Six of one, half dozen of the other.  

[VO5 8,272]

1 hour ago, akhosrof said:

 

Right, I think for guys like Wade and Jankovich, your point applies. But for guys like Holtmann, Prohm and Archie Miller, a deep tournament run is more of an exclamation point on their résumé than a fluke tournament run.

 

On the flip side of that, if Sean Miller or Tony Bennett make a Final Four, would they really want to leave their current job?

 

Outside of Donovan, Marshall is definitely my number one. He is a commanding presence as a head coach, and I don't think it would take him long at all to have us competing for championships. I believe he could have us competing for a B1G championship next year. Not sure you could say that about any of the other realistic candidates.

 

 

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Yeah sorry. Should've clarified above that I meant guys like Wade and Jankovich.

Agree with the rest. My worry is if we strike out on guys like Donovan and Archie, we'll go for one of those types. That would really scare me. Not saying it couldn't work out, but where our program stands now I would absolutely want a proven commodity over a hopeful candidate.

[Stuhoo 75,754]

 

A nine page thread, about:

 

 

[Stromboli 6,055]

No I'm pretty sure there was an emoticon.  All you need to know, bro.

[Walking Boot of Doom 18,170]

Let Crean coach those Shocker teams and they don't go that far in the tourney and those guys don't develop they way they did and don't make the NBA, just my opinion.

Marshall I think deserves the credit he gets. You can't discredit someone because he had "NBA players" that he coached and developed and they got exposure because they made those runs. MVC is not spewing out NBA players too often, I think Marshall and that team chemistry and system deserve a lot of credit there.

If he can get that much done with those recruits and they can develop over 4 years at an MVC school think what he could do with B1G caliber recruits.

I can't discredit him for not doing more in the tournament with a team that had three NBA players...? Why not?

Definitely gets credit for developing the players, but we've seen Crean do plenty of that. If it doesn't produce results, what does it really matter?


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[mdn82 25,461]

He said we would've won a few more games and inevitably had kept Clappy. He's telling horror stories on the board. 

Ah


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[iuswingman 1,940]

4 hours ago, yogisballin said:

Someone delete this


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why?  has the plot thinned?

[Yogi's Picnic Basket 5,004]

I really, really hope not. 1 magical season is nice, but as we have figured out (Crean), that isn't a recipe for further success. Give me someone who has sustained success over a flash in the pan. Guys like Donovan, Miller, Marshall, Bennett. Those are the guys we should, and have the ability to, go after.

I agree to an extent. If there are some coaches thay have had mild success making the tourney and make a run it will move them up for me. It would have to be at a mid major school for me though. Any power 5 school should be able to make runs every now and then based off talent. But if Archie made another elite 8 man it would put him right behind Billy D for me. Tim Jankovich is a great coach but he isnt on many short list because he loves it at SMU. Now if Collins made a run it would definitely help but honestly by the time tourney is here were probably in the process of naming our head coach already. That is my March Madness I am looking forward too this year. I plan to make a bracket with coach candidates and see who wins. Lol anything for excitement at this point.

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[Yogi's Picnic Basket 5,004]

I can't discredit him for not doing more in the tournament with a team that had three NBA players...? Why not?

Definitely gets credit for developing the players, but we've seen Crean do plenty of that. If it doesn't produce results, what does it really matter?


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Great point. I compare it to Crean at Marquette and the few sweet sixteens. Marshall may be a good coach not denying that but in the end he seems very similar to Crean coaching wise. Maybe not personality wise but he just rubs me the wrong way. I dont know why but I think he takes the Illinois job so hopefully we dont pass and have to be reminded every year we messed up. If we missed on Billy D, Archie, Mack, Collins and probably another name or two I would give him a call. IMO if it isnt Billy D we try our hardest to get Archie which shouldnt be a hard sell. We would be lucky to have him.

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[akhosrof 1,168]

Great point. I compare it to Crean at Marquette and the few sweet sixteens. Marshall may be a good coach not denying that but in the end he seems very similar to Crean coaching wise. Maybe not personality wise but he just rubs me the wrong way. I dont know why but I think he takes the Illinois job so hopefully we dont pass and have to be reminded every year we messed up. If we missed on Billy D, Archie, Mack, Collins and probably another name or two I would give him a call. IMO if it isnt Billy D we try our hardest to get Archie which shouldnt be a hard sell. We would be lucky to have him.

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I don't see the comparison outside of the mid-major commonality and one Final Four. I look at conference records and how a coach has consistently performed against his peers. Crean had one conference regular season title at Marquette, one second place finish, and nothing else to write home about. No conference tournament championships. Marshall has dominated conference play at both Winthrop and WSU. Archie Miller and his inconsistent conference play is a more worrisome of a Crean comparison to me.

Then throw in the defensive statistics and Marshall and Crean are different types of coaches.


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[Yogi's Picnic Basket 5,004]

I don't see the comparison outside of the mid-major commonality and one Final Four. I look at conference records and how a coach has consistently performed against his peers. Crean had one conference regular season title at Marquette, one second place finish, and nothing else to write home about. No conference tournament championships. Marshall has dominated conference play at both Winthrop and WSU. Archie Miller and his inconsistent conference play is a more worrisome of a Crean comparison to me.

Then throw in the defensive statistics and Marshall and Crean are different types of coaches.


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Okay lets just be honest though. Marquette played tougher teams than Marshall did during most of his tenure and here he has played in a tougher conference period. It is a lot different. I think Crean is a horrible fit here but if they switched spots I would say Crean probably does as good there and Idk if Marshall would here. The thing I like about Marshall is his defense so I would give him a shot but not before the others. Archie's conference numbers arent the best of all time but the A 10 is a very tough league. Numbers do matter but you look at a coach based off what they can do at IU more than what they have done at previous job. Not saying you can suck at that job and come here and win a title. I just think Archie has a ton of potential that he can reach here. Marshall would keep us consistent but idk about much else.

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[Brass Cannon 24,068]

I just do not get the Collins love in an up year he's only 6 spots higher than Crean in Kenpom. His team also feasted on cupcakes and has historically faded down the stretch. 

[akhosrof 1,168]

 

Okay lets just be honest though. Marquette played tougher teams than Marshall did during most of his tenure and here he has played in a tougher conference period. It is a lot different. I think Crean is a horrible fit here but if they switched spots I would say Crean probably does as good there and Idk if Marshall would here. The thing I like about Marshall is his defense so I would give him a shot but not before the others. Archie's conference numbers arent the best of all time but the A 10 is a very tough league. Numbers do matter but you look at a coach based off what they can do at IU more than what they have done at previous job. Not saying you can suck at that job and come here and win a title. I just think Archie has a ton of potential that he can reach here. Marshall would keep us consistent but idk about much else.

 

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No argument from me. Marshall is my 1 and Archie is my 2 (I don't consider Donovan realistic). I'd be extremely happy with either. I don't know the exact numbers with strength of schedule for Marshall at WSU and Winthrop vs. what Crean had at Marquette, or what Archie has had at Dayton. I'll take your word for it. No way of knowing if Marshall would have had the same success in the A10, the old C-USA, or if Crean would have been successful in Marshall's situation.

 

Each Marshall and Archie have their strengths and weaknesses. I see Marshall as a coach that's not going to get out-coached and will have his team ready to play night in and night out. He's a natural and has a commanding presence on the sideline. The question with him is how high is his ceiling, and can he recruit at a high enough level to compete for a national championship? Marshall has a high floor, he would have us in the top four in the B1G each year. But could he get us over the hump? I could see a Gary Williams-type career for him at Bloomington.

 

I see Archie as having an extremely high ceiling. I think Marshall would have us up and running faster, but Archie has the higher ceiling and has not peaked. No doubt that Archie in time would become an elite recruiter at Indiana. Higher risk than Marshall, but the potential is to get us back on par with UNC, UK, Duke and Kansas.

 

Either guy would bring better defense to B-town so I'd be happy with that.

 

 

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[bigrod 2,786]

Can we got some analysis of Marshall's SOS? Tournament success has been subpar. Let's not ignore the dude had a team with three NBA players (Early, Vanvleet, Baker), two of which comprised one of the most steady and experienced backcourts in recent history. I'm not impressed by his results. He's a good coach, but I'm just not sold that he's able to move into that next tier.


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Totally agree! He's better, but I'm not convinced it's a lot better.


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[Milldawg12 51]

Everyone's thoughts on Quin Snyder and what he has done with the Utah Jazz.......know he was fired by Mizzou, but that when they were still in the Big 12.

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[Jeff_Boy_Ardee 1,311]

I can't discredit him for not doing more in the tournament with a team that had three NBA players...? Why not?

Definitely gets credit for developing the players, but we've seen Crean do plenty of that. If it doesn't produce results, what does it really matter?


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Those players were not NBA players coming in to college, which is why they ended up at WSU and not a major program. And they would never made it to the NBA had they not played for a coach who was able to take his talent, develop it, and figure out ways to compete and win against bigger programs and making those runs in the tournament. I'm not saying they were not good, but to expect him to win an NCAA title with mid major talent is a little far fetched in my opinion.

Both were undrafted and are back in the D league, there are lots of players that go back to the D league (and/or never make it out) that came from college, so is it fair to say that any coach that had D league players and didn't win a title in college is an underperforming coach? I don't think so. It's not like he had Future NBA stars or even quality bench players on his team. Marshall has done more with less than many have done with more. Marshall is not my first choice, but I would not be upset at all if he were to become the head coach.

[Brass Cannon 24,068]

6 minutes ago, Jeff_Boy_Ardee said:

Those players were not NBA players coming in to college, which is why they ended up at WSU and not a major program. And they would never made it to the NBA had they not played for a coach who was able to take his talent, develop it, and figure out ways to compete and win against bigger programs and making those runs in the tournament. I'm not saying they were not good, but to expect him to win an NCAA title with mid major talent is a little far fetched in my opinion.

Both were undrafted and are back in the D league, there are lots of players that go back to the D league (and/or never make it out) that came from college, so is it fair to say that any coach that had D league players and didn't win a title in college is an underperforming coach? I don't think so. It's not like he had Future NBA stars or even quality bench players on his team. Marshall has done more with less than many have done with more. Marshall is not my first choice, but I would not be upset at all if he were to become the head coach.

Their point was developing players doesn't mean jack if you can't win games after you develop them. 

[seihoosier 165]

Wow, 13 first place finishes is pretty stinking good.  Tell me who has won more at any conference in the past 19 years?   If the NCAA hadn't placed WSU in with UK 3 years ago, they'd likely be the last remaining undefeated team in the NCAA's not IU.  His teams play solid D and they score a lot of points normally too.  

You can argue the A10 is better than the MVC, but both have been pretty solid in the top 5-6 teams the past 9 years.  To win the MVC what will be 5 out of the last 6 years, is impressive.  Besides, he's taken a mid major to the NCAA (this will be 6 straight) where it's usually 2-3 teams making it.  Where as the BIG usually has 7 minimum and Crean will have missed 2 out of the last 4.  Throw on top of that, his Shockers beat IU's Crean 2 years ago en route to a Sweet 16.  

Still not sold on Archie.  He's only been a head coach for 6 seasons.  He's done well with what he's had, but there have been several other mid major's make it to the Elite Eight.  

2006 - Memphis & George Mason 2007 - Memphis, 2008 - Davidson, Memphis & Xavier, 2010 - Butler,  2011 - VCU & Butler, 2013 - Wichita State 2014 - Dayton, 2015 - Gonzaga 

Would I be happy with him? Sure, he's better than Crean, but his track record does not hold up like Marshall's.   Just saying............

 

[Walking Boot of Doom 18,170]

Those players were not NBA players coming in to college, which is why they ended up at WSU and not a major program. And they would never made it to the NBA had they not played for a coach who was able to take his talent, develop it, and figure out ways to compete and win against bigger programs and making those runs in the tournament. I'm not saying they were not good, but to expect him to win an NCAA title with mid major talent is a little far fetched in my opinion.

Both were undrafted and are back in the D league, there are lots of players that go back to the D league (and/or never make it out) that came from college, so is it fair to say that any coach that had D league players and didn't win a title in college is an underperforming coach? I don't think so. It's not like he had Future NBA stars or even quality bench players on his team. Marshall has done more with less than many have done with more. Marshall is not my first choice, but I would not be upset at all if he were to become the head coach.

Early was the 34th pick and Ron Baker was starting on this Knicks for some games this year. Vanvleet is on the Raptors roster.

The players, when playing the tournament, were developed. Doesn't matter where they came from, they became top talents. Also, he put together some really strong college teams with those guys. Credit given there.

Crean has done the exact same thing. He's definitely pulled in more talent around the underrated players he developed. He's had greater failures, but I don't care what Crean has done. Marshall hasn't really impressed. He's clearly assembled teams that are far more talented than the rest of his conference, so I'm not even sure how much stock to put in his 19(?) conference titles. Solid recruiter, coach, and player developer who would likely have greater success with the same resources as Crean. I'm not convinced of that though based on his time at Wichita.


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[Uspshoosier 44,307]

Wow, 13 first place finishes is pretty stinking good.  Tell me who has won more at any conference in the past 19 years?   If the NCAA hadn't placed WSU in with UK 3 years ago, they'd likely be the last remaining undefeated team in the NCAA's not IU.  His teams play solid D and they score a lot of points normally too.  

You can argue the A10 is better than the MVC, but both have been pretty solid in the top 5-6 teams the past 9 years.  To win the MVC what will be 5 out of the last 6 years, is impressive.  Besides, he's taken a mid major to the NCAA (this will be 6 straight) where it's usually 2-3 teams making it.  Where as the BIG usually has 7 minimum and Crean will have missed 2 out of the last 4.  Throw on top of that, his Shockers beat IU's Crean 2 years ago en route to a Sweet 16.  


Still not sold on Archie.  He's only been a head coach for 6 seasons.  He's done well with what he's had, but there have been several other mid major's make it to the Elite Eight.  

2006 - Memphis & George Mason 2007 - Memphis, 2008 - Davidson, Memphis & Xavier, 2010 - Butler,  2011 - VCU & Butler, 2013 - Wichita State 2014 - Dayton, 2015 - Gonzaga 

Would I be happy with him? Sure, he's better than Crean, but his track record does not hold up like Marshall's.   Just saying............

 

Bill self has 13 in a row and has never finished below 3rd in his years of coaching. If Kentucky wouldn't of beat them that year they would of loss to someone else. Kentucky was the 8 seed that year so it wasn't like they were a giant that year. If I remember right Harrison had to hit 3 game winning shots against Wichita st, Michigan, and wisky.


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