TOM CREAN FIRED

[Dalton26 16,891]

[quote name="Buck Naked" post="27809" timestamp="1388873385"]I never said accepting mediocrity is ok. But there are maybe 3 teams in college basketball today that can expect to compete for a national championship every year , UNC, UK and Duke. That's it and don't say a B1G team before you look up the last time a B1G won one.

Living outside the state, I've learned one thing, IU is not in the national discussion anymore for the most part. Crean has to rebuild that, but to be honest, IU was known more nationally for Knight 's antics than anything. And while Knight help build a blue blood of a program, by his own admission he mailed in recruiting his last few years and that started the decline.

Crean is right, expectations are and should be high, but you have to balance that with reality. The expectation come mostly from inside the state, not outside. Parkers, Wiggins and Randles aren't coming to IU and prob never will. Crean is doing good , not great, with what he has. Like I said, check with me next year.

PS- one more thing, NEVER fire your coach unless you know the next one will be better. And don't give me Stevens. He lived off recruiting the state while IU was down.


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I wouldn't put UNC in the same category as duke and UK.


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[JaybobHoosier 11,821]

Absolutely not!!


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Welcome to the site!!! :)

[HoosierReb01 7,511]

PS- And don't give me Stevens. He lived off recruiting the state while IU was down.


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What could he do if he was recruiting for IU instead of against them? In the Stevens argument though (which is probably a moot point for probably the next 3 years anyway), he took a lot of players that IU probably would never even have looked at, and had more success than would have been reasonable to expect. That's good coaching. 

[mdn82 25,456]

There is another message board which I won't name where they basically want him tarred and feathered and want to pay Stevens ANYTHING to get him in Bloomington.



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That is the thing though.  With the same players, I would agree.  Stevens is a better coach.  Would he get the same players?  Nobody knows either way.  I think when he comes back from the NBA, he will.  If he has 2 rough years in a row, and the IU position would open up, I would be willing to bet he would listen hard.  Unless you are a HOF coach, you are hired to be fired, and then sometimes that is still the case.  At some point Crean won't be here.  How we finish this season and how do next season, imo, will go a long way if it is soon or later on.  If Noah comes back, I see no way we aren't a top 15 team with everyone minus Will and Evan coming back.  I hope this shows Crean you can't overload on a class and be successful.  Hopefully, he evens out his classes going forward.  

[HoosierReb01 7,511]

I hope this shows Crean you can't overload on a class and be successful.  Hopefully, he evens out his classes going forward.  

Which will be helped if he gets some players who don't have a problem sitting on the bench the first couple of years and then can contribute heavily in their junior and senior years. Going pro after 2 or 3 years, or transferring out after a year or two really hurts the whole team.

[southsidehoosier 4,794]

That is the thing though.  With the same players, I would agree.  Stevens is a better coach.  Would he get the same players?  Nobody knows either way.  I think when he comes back from the NBA, he will.  If he has 2 rough years in a row, and the IU position would open up, I would be willing to bet he would listen hard.  Unless you are a HOF coach, you are hired to be fired, and then sometimes that is still the case.  At some point Crean won't be here.  How we finish this season and how do next season, imo, will go a long way if it is soon or later on.  If Noah comes back, I see no way we aren't a top 15 team with everyone minus Will and Evan coming back.  I hope this shows Crean you can't overload on a class and be successful.  Hopefully, he evens out his classes going forward.  

I thought I had heard at one point IU was his dream coaching job.

[CottageGrove 563]

What could he do if he was recruiting for IU instead of against them? In the Stevens argument though (which is probably a moot point for probably the next 3 years anyway), he took a lot of players that IU probably would never even have looked at, and had more success than would have been reasonable to expect. That's good coaching. 

It always amazes me more people didn't see the article (or at least give weight to it) Gary Parrish wrote for CBS last summer when Stevens left for Boston. In it he wrote that Stevens made it very clear that he had no interest in recruiting the way you have to at a big time program, and that was part of why he wanted to be in the NBA and not at a major college program. I'm not sure if IU, or any other big time program aside from Duke (let's be honest, Duke is different), would ever be a real option for him. Heck, he may be an NBA lifer regardless of how his time in Boston ends. If NBA GM's are good at one thing it's recycling head coaches who have already failed.

 

As for Crean, I'm still behind him, but like many, my concerns are growing. I think that one of the marks of a good coach is that he adapts his system to the players he has rather than trying to fit square square pegs into round holes. From a big picture perspective that's probably my biggest issue with Crean.

[HoosierReb01 7,511]

It always amazes me more people didn't see the article (or at least give weight to it) Gary Parrish wrote for CBS last summer when Stevens left for Boston. In it he wrote that Stevens made it very clear that he had no interest in recruiting the way you have to at a big time program, and that was part of why he wanted to be in the NBA and not at a major college program. I'm not sure if IU, or any other big time program aside from Duke (let's be honest, Duke is different), would ever be a real option for him. Heck, he may be an NBA lifer regardless of how his time in Boston ends. If NBA GM's are good at one thing it's recycling head coaches who have already failed.

 

As for Crean, I'm still behind him, but like many, my concerns are growing. I think that one of the marks of a good coach is that he adapts his system to the players he has rather than trying to fit square square pegs into round holes. From a big picture perspective that's probably my biggest issue with Crean.

Two most excellent points.

[CottageGrove 563]

Two most excellent points.

If I made two good points that ought to be worth a like or two, right? Am I right?!?   :biggrin:

[HoosierReb01 7,511]

If I made two good points that ought to be worth a like or two, right? Am I right?!?   :biggrin:

I can only take care of the one. Stroke Jaybob for another!  :cheese:

[coonhounds 8,690]

The crean concern should start last year. Yes we win the big outright but truly we tried to give that away. Then big tourney was emberassing plus temple in big dance followed by the cuse debacle. Now u have jh instead of improving he does opposite not a good sign<br /><br />Sent from my SCH-I535 using BtownBanners mobile app<br /><br />

[Hovadipo 52,925]

Crean probably doesn't deserve to be fired this year, or even next year (if this team underachieves), but NOT because of what he has done for IU. The honeymoon is over. We are relatively successful again and the sanctions are lifted, it is now time to start performing. Crean is a pretty darn good recruiter. Great motivator. Good PR guy for the school. BUT basketball comes down to X's and O's and preparing your players to execute. From what we all have seen, Crean struggles with adapting to what the great coaches of the B1G throw at him (Izzo, Matta, Ryan). Looking to the future, I'm not convinced Crean is the man to take us where we want to go. But I am all for giving him more time, especially with this transition season we have going.


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[HoosierReb01 7,511]

It always amazes me more people didn't see the article (or at least give weight to it) Gary Parrish wrote for CBS last summer when Stevens left for Boston. In it he wrote that Stevens made it very clear that he had no interest in recruiting the way you have to at a big time program, and that was part of why he wanted to be in the NBA and not at a major college program. I'm not sure if IU, or any other big time program aside from Duke (let's be honest, Duke is different), would ever be a real option for him. Heck, he may be an NBA lifer regardless of how his time in Boston ends. If NBA GM's are good at one thing it's recycling head coaches who have already failed.

 

As for Crean, I'm still behind him, but like many, my concerns are growing. I think that one of the marks of a good coach is that he adapts his system to the players he has rather than trying to fit square square pegs into round holes. From a big picture perspective that's probably my biggest issue with Crean.

Two points from me on this though. First I think it is highly possible that he will find that much of what worked for him at  Butler just won't work in the pros. And as such he may find a desire to go back to college ball, although it might be at another mid-major. I very well could be wrong, he is a awful smart guy.

 

Second, at IU he might not have to change his recruiting all that much. In his style of ball he doesn't need the stable of NBA prospects that the Creans and Caliparis need. He would probably have to secure a top notch recruit here or there, but he could probably be successful without stocking up on 4 and 5 stars. Thats all a moot point if he just doesn't want to do it.

[mdn82 25,456]

I thought I had heard at one point IU was his dream coaching job.

 

It is.  That is why I think after 2 years if they were really bad in Boston he would look at it.  

[CottageGrove 563]

[quote name="HoosierReb01" post="27877" timestamp="1388880288"]Two points from me on this though. First I think it is highly possible that he will find that much of what worked for him at Butler just won't work in the pros. And as such he may find a desire to go back to college ball, although it might be at another mid-major. I very well could be wrong, he is a awful smart guy.

Second, at IU he might not have to change his recruiting all that much. In his style of ball he doesn't need the stavle of NBA prospects that the Creans and Caliparis need. He would probably have to secure a top notch recruit here or there, but he could probably be successful without stocking up on 4 and 5 stars. Thats all a moot point if he just doesn't want to do it.[/quote]

Great points. At IU I would imagine it would be much easier for him to focus in state and build with his type of players...guys like Dunham, Howard, etc. They're 4 star kids, but maybe not as heavily recruited or quite as highly ranked as the 4 star guys Crean goes after. And then of course pick up the occasional 5 star in state kid like he almost did with Zeller.

He has a similar style to Bo Ryan, but obviously a better tourney track record. And he would be easy for a lot of the fan base to rally around. Maybe he could be the guy to unify most of the fan base for the first time since the early 90's.

But I'm bordering on long term wishful thinking here...

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[bronkonagurski 894]

Tom's buyout is mighty pricey for a few years so those wanting him gone now will need to find a happy place for a while.  

 

The notorious, controversial individual from certain other sites predicted before the season began that he expected IU to win 16-18 games and likely be a bubble or NIT team.  I scoffed at that and I think even he revised his expectations upwards at a certain point but...this season to me was a great unknown.  I wasn't sure how to even assign any expectations to it before I saw the product on the floor.  I've seen enough now to make a few observations of my own:

 

1)  The offense certainly has not changed, the personnel has changed.  And therein lies the problem, we don't have the personnel to run the same offense.  Last year, we could space the floor due to our perimeter threats and that allowed Victor to dribble penetrate down the middle of the defense.  This season, we aren't able to space the floor in that manner because defenses know they can pack the middle and not honor the three point line.  Therefore, the dribble penetration really isn't there and that is where our offense looks like a hot mess.  If we can't penetrate and we aren't able to get the ball to Noah in the post, this offense is just garbage right now. 

 

2)  I expect a young team to have some struggles with turnovers.  I also expect to see some improvement in that area and so far it simply is not happening.  Plus the fact that our returning PG Yogi Ferrell has very much been a part of our turnover issues.  Which look, overall I like Yogi and I think he has been our best and most consistent player.  I think he is forcing things too much at times due to our larger issues.

 

3)  The 2012 class has been a disappointment.  Some people were saying that last season and I thought it was ridiculously early to make that assessment.  Well, a year later and I cannot help but share the sentiment.  Outside of Yogi, I have struggled to be impressed.  Hollowell seems worse than last year (I thought as the season progressed last season he started showing signs).  Hanner has improved, but not enough to live up to expectations yet.  Jurkin may as well not be on the team.  Buss, well we know he never made it here.  I know, too late to whine about it but I sure wish we had gotten Gary Harris. 

 

4)  The underachievement of the 2012 class plus + everything we lost from last season (Zeller, Oladipo, Watford, Hulls) has put a lot more pressure on these 2013 kids to produce immediately.  The only one who I feel has been consistently up to that challenge has been Vonleh.  The other kids have had spurts but nothing consistent.  Troy will be a special player imo but he will need more seasoning and growth.  Fischer bailed.  Stanford had a really solid outing today and I think he can be good too but...I wish guys like Troy & Stan would have more of a chance to grow and develop behind upperclassmen. 

 

5)  Our most experienced guy is Will Sheehey and I like the guy but...he is so inconsistent.  He has never made the same jumps as Victor.  He has worked hard and been scrappy and had some moments but end of the day, he still makes me feel like I'm watching a role player, a 6th man who happens to start games. 

 

Bottom line, I certainly have criticisms of Crean.  My main criticism of the current team is that it is NOT well-constructed to execute the type of game that Tom wants to play.  Can he adjust and give this team a better chance to win going forward or will he keep slamming square pegs into round holes? 

 

If we head to the NIT this March, so be it.  I won't enjoy that but I won't lose my mind over it.  My main concern is next season and going forward.  Luke's departure plus the prospect of Noah going pro makes me very nervous about a 2014-15 team that I was ready to pencil in as Crean's next best chance at a Final Four contender.  Can he manage the roster construction in such a way to get us back on track quickly? 

[hoosierpap 14,300]

Tom's buyout is mighty pricey for a few years so those wanting him gone now will need to find a happy place for a while.  

 

The notorious, controversial individual from certain other sites predicted before the season began that he expected IU to win 16-18 games and likely be a bubble or NIT team.  I scoffed at that and I think even he revised his expectations upwards at a certain point but...this season to me was a great unknown.  I wasn't sure how to even assign any expectations to it before I saw the product on the floor.  I've seen enough now to make a few observations of my own:

 

1)  The offense certainly has not changed, the personnel has changed.  And therein lies the problem, we don't have the personnel to run the same offense.  Last year, we could space the floor due to our perimeter threats and that allowed Victor to dribble penetrate down the middle of the defense.  This season, we aren't able to space the floor in that manner because defenses know they can pack the middle and not honor the three point line.  Therefore, the dribble penetration really isn't there and that is where our offense looks like a hot mess.  If we can't penetrate and we aren't able to get the ball to Noah in the post, this offense is just garbage right now. 

 

2)  I expect a young team to have some struggles with turnovers.  I also expect to see some improvement in that area and so far it simply is not happening.  Plus the fact that our returning PG Yogi Ferrell has very much been a part of our turnover issues.  Which look, overall I like Yogi and I think he has been our best and most consistent player.  I think he is forcing things too much at times due to our larger issues.

 

3)  The 2012 class has been a disappointment.  Some people were saying that last season and I thought it was ridiculously early to make that assessment.  Well, a year later and I cannot help but share the sentiment.  Outside of Yogi, I have struggled to be impressed.  Hollowell seems worse than last year (I thought as the season progressed last season he started showing signs).  Hanner has improved, but not enough to live up to expectations yet.  Jurkin may as well not be on the team.  Buss, well we know he never made it here.  I know, too late to whine about it but I sure wish we had gotten Gary Harris. 

 

4)  The underachievement of the 2012 class plus + everything we lost from last season (Zeller, Oladipo, Watford, Hulls) has put a lot more pressure on these 2013 kids to produce immediately.  The only one who I feel has been consistently up to that challenge has been Vonleh.  The other kids have had spurts but nothing consistent.  Troy will be a special player imo but he will need more seasoning and growth.  Fischer bailed.  Stanford had a really solid outing today and I think he can be good too but...I wish guys like Troy & Stan would have more of a chance to grow and develop behind upperclassmen. 

 

5)  Our most experienced guy is Will Sheehey and I like the guy but...he is so inconsistent.  He has never made the same jumps as Victor.  He has worked hard and been scrappy and had some moments but end of the day, he still makes me feel like I'm watching a role player, a 6th man who happens to start games. 

 

Bottom line, I certainly have criticisms of Crean.  My main criticism of the current team is that it is NOT well-constructed to execute the type of game that Tom wants to play.  Can he adjust and give this team a better chance to win going forward or will he keep slamming square pegs into round holes? 

 

If we head to the NIT this March, so be it.  I won't enjoy that but I won't lose my mind over it.  My main concern is next season and going forward.  Luke's departure plus the prospect of Noah going pro makes me very nervous about a 2014-15 team that I was ready to pencil in as Crean's next best chance at a Final Four contender.  Can he manage the roster construction in such a way to get us back on track quickly? 

This is spot on, Bronk.

[djsalway 4,161]

I'll give my simple answer... No. <br /><br /><br />Sent from my iPhone using BtownBanners mobile app

[BlueDevil 8,643]

Not a crean fan lost respect for him when he went off on Meyer last year but no not time to fire him that's ridiculous. Young team gaining experience not having the year everyone wanted them to have. They are getting better. Crean needs to get better too.


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[jimdeboard 0]

Dont think Coach should be fired. It  is easy to see that the talent from a year ago is not there. He has alot of young players & does not have the scoring power they had last year. It will take a year or 2 to get this team where it should be. Should be alot of improvement by the end of the Conference season.