Analysis: I choose not to pile on Troy Williams

I think he'd make a great wide receiver.

I've thought the same thing! Think Kevin Wilson could do anything with him out there? I don't think he'd be Cody Latimer but his size would be great at WR. 6-7 215. That would be awesome.

O, and people aren't piling on just because of one game. We've got a track record of boneheaded play here.

 

I know it's not just one game and I've been guilty of screaming at the television set on road games or thinking things while sitting in Assembly Hall, too. It just seemed like people were a little over the top after and during this one. I'll put it this way, I don't think IU is 20-6 right now if you didn't have Troy Williams. My guess is the Hoosiers would have another two or three losses.

How would anyone know what he could do with the limited minutes he gets ? Yes he makes freshman mistakes and I'll take that every time verses Troy a junior standing in the corner tugging on his shorts ! He pretty much embarrassed Valentine a senior on that fast break in today's game , might not be the second coming but man I can't wait till he is a junior !!!!

 

I'm not sure about limited minutes. He has had double-digit minutes in every Big Ten game. He was limited in the non-conference that's for sure, but I think most freshmen coming off the bench would be happy with double-digit conference minutes. He played 17 minutes today.

Troy is 6'7" and a 3/4 in the college game. Have any of you EVER seen him take a player his size (or a smaller player) down to the post?

 

EVER? 

 

He had Eron Harris at 6'3" guarding him for a fair amount of time this game. Why not?!? For me, that is a sign of a player that has not worked on a component of his game.

Troy is 6'7" and a 3/4 in the college game. Have any of you EVER seen him take a player his size (or a smaller player) down to the post?

EVER?

He had Eron Harris at 6'3" guarding him for a fair amount of time this game. Why not?!? For me, that is a sign of a player that has not worked on a component of his game.

Basketball IQ? Not just the player either.

Troy is 6'7" and a 3/4 in the college game. Have any of you EVER seen him take a player his size (or a smaller player) down to the post?

EVER?

He had Eron Harris at 6'3" guarding him for a fair amount of time this game. Why not?!? For me, that is a sign of a player that has not worked on a component of his game.

Well he definitely isn't Andrew Wiggins.

The past two years the team success has pretty much depended on Troy. When he plays well, we win. When he doesn't, we lose. Its that simple for me. Every offseason we've heard about him improving his game in one facet or another but I have still yet to see it. His shot has a gotten a better, but he doesn't know a good shot vs a bad one. He ball handling and decision making hasn't really improved. I wouldn't be surprised to see him leave for the draft after this year. I don't think he is ready but I think he will have plenty of people telling him he will be. I'll probably get flak for this, but I would welcome the idea of him leaving for the NBA. I think OG shows a lot more potential and ability at the same position.

And herein lies a huge problem.  Our fate is determined by a low basketball IQ guy who isn't a good shooter or decision maker.    He has regressed this season, and hasn't improved anything about his game; nor has Crean used him in ways he can be most effective.   

And herein lies a huge problem.  Our fate is determined by a low basketball IQ guy who isn't a good shooter or decision maker.    He has regressed this season, and hasn't improved anything about his game; nor has Crean used him in ways he can be most effective.   

 

I'm not arguing with you but what are the ways you would suggest that Crean could use him better and in ways he could be more effective? Rather than a lot of people him or them, I'd be interested in your suggestions.

If you just remove him, maybe. But if you're saying our record would be worse without Troy, but I get to replace him with a player that actually has an ounce of BBall IQ, I'd argue our record would be better. I don't even mean a superstar, just a basketball player that has IQ, skills, etc. I'd argue our record would be 2-3 games better.

I know it's not just one game and I've been guilty of screaming at the television set on road games or thinking things while sitting in Assembly Hall, too. It just seemed like people were a little over the top after and during this one. I'll put it this way, I don't think IU is 20-6 right now if you didn't have Troy Williams. My guess is the Hoosiers would have another two or three losses.

If you just remove him, maybe. But if you're saying our record would be worse without Troy, but I get to replace him with a player that actually has an ounce of BBall IQ, I'd argue our record would be better. I don't even mean a superstar, just a basketball player that has IQ, skills, etc. I'd argue our record would be 2-3 games better.

Do you think LSU would trade us Ben Simmons? Duke with Brandon Ingram? Oklahoma with Buddy Hield?

I'm not arguing with you but what are the ways you would suggest that Crean could use him better and in ways he could be more effective? Rather than a lot of people him or them, I'd be interested in your suggestions.

I think he's a baseline guy.    A cutter.  He has the ball in his hands way too much, and he takes way too many jump shots, especially early in the shot clock.  I've never once seen him come off a screen to catch a pass while he's on the move toward the rim; and I'd love to see him used as a baseline cutter more often.  When our kids drive, and it was blatant today, they do so to score.  Even over help.  Troy, behind that help could be a huge weapon along the baseline.   (Drive, draw help, Troy cuts behind help, scores.  Doesn't need the ball, takes high percentage shot, uses his athletic ability.  Doesn't have to do things he can't do)  

 

I think he has too much freedom, and because he CAN handle the ball, he's allowed to do so far too often.  He can be far more effective without the ball than he is; and I would like to see him use his quickness more often when he doesn't try to create for himself.   There have been times he's been used to cut behind zones, and he's been effective that way.  He strikes me as the kind of player that doesn't understand how to let a game come to him, but when he tries to play catalyst and it doesn't go well early, we lose him.

Loved Troy when he was a freshman.  Thought he was okay last year.  This year every time he gets the ball on top I want to throw something at the TV.  His bull rushes and wild out of control shots kill the offense.  Everyone stands around when Troy gets the ball out front because the offense comes to a standstill.  Then the turnovers are maddening.  Crean benched him as a starter in Maui and his mother had a meltdown.  That, I believe, tells you something.  Crean has been sitting him down more and more for poor play and Troy still doesn't get it.  I don't think he ever will.  He is a great athlete but a pretty sorry basketball player.  So the choice is put up with what we have or start Anunoby and run the risk that Troy blows up the team with a sour attitude.  If it were my team I'd take the risk.  The goal is to put a better team on the floor.  I'd put Troy right next to me on the bench and tell him he is now the sixth man.  His job is to watch the action and figure what he can do to help because he is always going to be the first sub and he needs to bring high energy when he sets foot on that floor.  Above all he must play team ball, not hero ball.  From there his playing time would depend on his effectiveness.

If you can't provide the team with any production.... step aside

I'm not arguing with you but what are the ways you would suggest that Crean could use him better and in ways he could be more effective? Rather than a lot of people him or them, I'd be interested in your suggestions.

Baseline, baseline and more baseline. He's very efficient in that area. Stay around the paint for rebounds and put-backs. He's solid in that aspect, too.

 

His role doesn't need expanded more than that. He doesn't need to ever stray further than 10-12 feet away from the hoop. He's had plenty of opportunities to show consistency with his drives to the basket, but can never take advantage of it on a regular basis. Way too inconsistent and our team suffers. Same with his jump shot. It's too inconsistent to be relied upon and when we have Troy as our #2/#3 option, we go as he goes. I'd rather Yogi, Bryant, Johnson, Hartman, Zeisloft, Bielfeldt or OG shoot a jump shot before I would want Troy to do it.

 

If he was a great defender, you could almost live with such an inconsistent offensive game (see Raphael Davis at Purdue.) But those same inconsistencies persist on that side of the ball as well.

 

When Troy looks good, he looks GOOD. But when he looks bad... it looks ugly. And with Troy being a top option on our team, it's like we're rolling the dice each game to be successful. And we'll never be more than an 8-seed playing (gambling) like that. I'd diminish his offensive role and determine his minutes by how he defends.

Value added is what we are looking for here in Troy Williams:

 

What is value added:

-if you don't score well, you contribute in other areas

  *rebounding (not bad)

  *assists (low, absurd passing in some games)

  *defense (has the occassional block but usually gets beat)

  *leadership (none)

  *turnover to assist (horrible)

 

I get what you are saying that he did contribute in a couple of wins this year.  But if you have an off night scoring, how do you contribute to the team win?  If not, find someone else that can.

I have said this before, I wish Hartman had Troy's athleticism or vice versa.

Not a good sign when Troy has the ball and everyone cringes! Is he going to be a hero or a zero. We should expect more from our junior.

I think he's a baseline guy.    A cutter.  He has the ball in his hands way too much, and he takes way too many jump shots, especially early in the shot clock.  I've never once seen him come off a screen to catch a pass while he's on the move toward the rim; and I'd love to see him used as a baseline cutter more often.  When our kids drive, and it was blatant today, they do so to score.  Even over help.  Troy, behind that help could be a huge weapon along the baseline.   (Drive, draw help, Troy cuts behind help, scores.  Doesn't need the ball, takes high percentage shot, uses his athletic ability.  Doesn't have to do things he can't do)  

 

I think he has too much freedom, and because he CAN handle the ball, he's allowed to do so far too often.  He can be far more effective without the ball than he is; and I would like to see him use his quickness more often when he doesn't try to create for himself.   There have been times he's been used to cut behind zones, and he's been effective that way.  He strikes me as the kind of player that doesn't understand how to let a game come to him, but when he tries to play catalyst and it doesn't go well early, we lose him.

Saved me the time of having to respond to this post. Word for word I couldn't have said it any better. I don't know if Crean will ever figure out that this kid dribbling the basketball is a terrible idea. Does Crean ever sit down with him and watch film? Because if they did we wouldn't be experiencing deja vu every game.

Troy is averaging about 11 points and 6 rebounds in B1G play.  Like you said, his big games have come at home but against middle of the pack to bottom feeder teams.  He also has only 20 assists to 34 turnovers in conference games, that's a 0.58 ato ratio.  Of those 20 assists 9 came in two games at home against terrible teams (ILL and NW).  Troy is shooting about 44% from the field, 26% from deep, and 71% from the FT line.  If those numbers came from a promising frosh, like OG, I would say he's adjusting to the college game.  However, they're numbers from a regressing junior that is out of control more often than not.

 

There are three main differences between OG and Troy.  Those two missed layups you mentioned by OG today actually are close.  Troy has layups that are airballs or just flat out wildly out of control.  The "assists" Troy has to the opponent are also buffling.  Troy had a two game stretch earlier in the season that he assisted on 16 points for the opponent.  You see that very little out of OG.  The third difference and most significant is defense.  Troy completely gave up on a Wiscy fastbreak earlier in the season.  You can count on him losing his man several times for wide open looks from behind the arc.  OG is there in position to at least make a play.  Yes, he gets beat on defense sometimes but Troy gets beat more often than not.  That takes a toll on the team. 

 

I'd be willing to bet if we saw less of Troy we would see the team take it up a notch similar to when JBJ went down.  OG now is what I expected of a junior Troy; playing under control, using athleticism when needed, playing position defense.  Troy is an athlete struggling to learn and execute the fundamentals of basketball.  OG is a basketball player with great athleticism. 

I tried to like this x100, but it just kept liking then unliking and liking again!

From Rabs:

Since going scoreless at Michigan State, Indiana junior Troy Williams has 18, 19, 7, 15, 19 (so far) points. Career-high is 23.